Mist Valley Apex Avian Rulings

Mist Valley Apex Avian's effect:
When an effect is activated, you can select 1 face-up "Mist Valley" card you control. Return that "Mist Valley" card to its owner's hand, negate the effect's activation, and destroy the card whose effect was activated.

Can Apex’s effect be activated multiple times in a chain? The OCG rulings said no but I found this that said you could in the TCG http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1026134. I do not think you can because it has no cost and could be chained infinitely to its self.

Can Apex negate any spell/trap that has an effect when it is activated like monster reborn, dark hole or mirror force? I am sure it can because it is an effect activating.

Apex can negate the effects of face up continuous spell/traps that start a chain but can it negate when a continuous spell like Dimensional Fissure is activated or a field spell like Geartown is activated.

The last question is slightly less related but involves Apex.
If a player controls a face up Mist Valley Avian Apex and a Mist Valley Thunderbird, and his opponent (the turn player) has a Treeborn Frog in the graveyard, he activates the effect of Treeborn Frog to summon it, but it is negated by Apex that returned Thunderbird to the hand which special summoned its self so there is no change to anything. It is still the Standby phase so Treeborn can be activated again and negated again. This would cause a loop that could be stopped by either player but neither wants to so who would have to stop activating their effect, the turn player or the non-turn player?

The effect of the apex avian can be activated once per chain in cases that we don't have a tcg ruling we obey the ocg

Apex avian can negate cards like reborn, mirror force etc.

Yes apex avian can negate continuous spell/trap cards that start a chain but cards like Valhalla, dimensional fissure and geartown they don't start a chain.

Apex avian and treborn they do a loop the one who has to stop it is the turn player

Thanks, one more little thing.
Can Apex negate when Catapult Zone is activated(not the effect of Catapult Zone but the activation of the card) so that my field spell (divine wind of mist valley) would not be destroyed. I doubt it can as Catapult Zone does not have an effect when it is activated. Also what about the activation of Geartown because it has the effect that: Both players can Tribute Summon "Ancient Gear" monsters with 1 less Tribute than required. So would my field spell be destroyed or can Apex negate and destroy Geartown?

Catapult Zone's effect:
Once per turn, if a monster you control would be destroyed by battle, you can send 1 Rock-Type monster from your Deck to the Graveyard instead.

Geartown's effect:
Both players can Tribute Summon "Ancient Gear" monsters with 1 less Tribute than required. When this card is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard: You can Special Summon 1 "Ancient Gear" monster from your hand, Deck, or Graveyard.

He can't negate the activation of catapult zone.
The old field is destroyed and only if the new one has an eff that starts a chain you can negate it.
The effect of geartown that let any player summon a ancient gear monster with one less tribute is a continuous effect. With Apex Avian you can negate only the effect which activates when    
geartown gets destroyed

isaac879 wrote:Mist Valley Apex Avian's effect:
When an effect is activated, you can select 1 face-up "Mist Valley" card you control. Return that "Mist Valley" card to its owner's hand, negate the effect's activation, and destroy the card whose effect was activated.

Can Apex’s effect be activated multiple times in a chain? The OCG rulings said no but I found this that said you could in the TCG http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1026134. I do not think you can because it has no cost and could be chained infinitely to its self.

Once per chain.

isaac879 wrote:
Can Apex negate any spell/trap that has an effect when it is activated like monster reborn, dark hole or mirror force? I am sure it can because it is an effect activating.

Yes it can negate any spell/trap card as long as it is not a counter trap.

isaac879 wrote:
Apex can negate the effects of face up continuous spell/traps that start a chain but can it negate when a continuous spell like Dimensional Fissure is activated or a field spell like Geartown is activated.

Effects of continuous spells/traps that activate, yes. Continuous effects, no.

isaac879 wrote:
The last question is slightly less related but involves Apex.
If a player controls a face up Mist Valley Avian Apex and a Mist Valley Thunderbird, and his opponent (the turn player) has a Treeborn Frog in the graveyard, he activates the effect of Treeborn Frog to summon it, but it is negated by Apex that returned Thunderbird to the hand which special summoned its self so there is no change to anything. It is still the Standby phase so Treeborn can be activated again and negated again. This would cause a loop that could be stopped by either player but neither wants to so who would have to stop activating their effect, the turn player or the non-turn player?

Same as Wanghu-Treeborn loop. Continuing doing so without purpose is considered an offense, and it is punishable.

isaac879 wrote:
Can Apex negate when Catapult Zone is activated(not the effect of Catapult Zone but the activation of the card) so that my field spell (divine wind of mist valley) would not be destroyed. I doubt it can as Catapult Zone does not have an effect when it is activated. Also what about the activation of Geartown because it has the effect that: Both players can Tribute Summon "Ancient Gear" monsters with 1 less Tribute than required. So would my field spell be destroyed or can Apex negate and destroy Geartown?

Catapult Zone doesn't start a chain, so no.

Geartown's first effect also doesn't start a chain. Apex Avian cannot negate cards' activations, so the old field is still destroyed.

Reaper of the Cards wrote:

isaac879 wrote:

The last question is slightly less related but involves Apex.
If a player controls a face up Mist Valley Avian Apex and a Mist Valley Thunderbird, and his opponent (the turn player) has a Treeborn Frog in the graveyard, he activates the effect of Treeborn Frog to summon it, but it is negated by Apex that returned Thunderbird to the hand which special summoned its self so there is no change to anything. It is still the Standby phase so Treeborn can be activated again and negated again. This would cause a loop that could be stopped by either player but neither wants to so who would have to stop activating their effect, the turn player or the non-turn player?

Same as Wanghu-Treeborn loop. Continuing doing so without purpose is considered an offense, and it is punishable.

Wanghu is a mandatory trigger effect so only the player who is activating Treeborn's effect can stop it.
The Apex Treeborn loop is different because both Treeborn and Apex are optional so either player could choose to stop activating their effect. So would the turn player have to stop activating Treeborn's effect or would the non-turn player have to stop negating Treeborn's effect with Apex?

isaac879 wrote:

Reaper of the Cards wrote:

isaac879 wrote:

The last question is slightly less related but involves Apex.
If a player controls a face up Mist Valley Avian Apex and a Mist Valley Thunderbird, and his opponent (the turn player) has a Treeborn Frog in the graveyard, he activates the effect of Treeborn Frog to summon it, but it is negated by Apex that returned Thunderbird to the hand which special summoned its self so there is no change to anything. It is still the Standby phase so Treeborn can be activated again and negated again. This would cause a loop that could be stopped by either player but neither wants to so who would have to stop activating their effect, the turn player or the non-turn player?

Same as Wanghu-Treeborn loop. Continuing doing so without purpose is considered an offense, and it is punishable.

Wanghu is a mandatory trigger effect so only the player who is activating Treeborn's effect can stop it.
The Apex Treeborn loop is different because both Treeborn and Apex are optional so either player could choose to stop activating their effect. So would the turn player have to stop activating Treeborn's effect or would the non-turn player have to stop negating Treeborn's effect with Apex?

If the Treeborn owner wants to stop trying to being back Treeborn, so be it. But let's be honest, he won't stop. Apex Avian owner can do nothing but negate. Still, it's the same kind of scenario like Whanghu. One of the two has to stop if there is no purpose.

I assume that in this case the problem is solved with a judge/an admin's intervention. Correct?


And, wouldn't it be better to destroy by game mechanics both cards that cause the loop? If the destruction of Apex Avian would change the result too much, then Thunderbird could be destroyed instead. I am assuming in these cases only 1 card chosen by the admin/judge is destroyed, and that in most cases like this the destroyed card would be Treeborn Frog. Correct?